I find out that my Mayan Sign is completely different, compared to what I found on other websites. Why is that?
Probably you are checking on a website, which uses the “Dreamspell count” of the Tzolkin. The Dreamspell count was enerated by Jose Arguelles in late 1980’s. He uses the exact same Tzolkin structure of the Maya, the order of the 260 days is exactly the same. However, at which day we are today, has different answer in these two counts.
We are using the so called “authentic count”, which the Mayan day keepers have been following for about 2500 years without interruption. To exemplify the difference, if today is 10 Serpent in the authentic count, the Dreamspell count will say today is 4 Monkey. So it is like, “is today 16th of October 2018, or 5th of May 2018?” The confusion goes deeper when one considers his Mayan Sign. Was I born on a 10 Serpent day or 4 Monkey day? Sometimes one of the signs in the four directions will be the original sign in the other count.
So people can still feel there is accuracy in the reading they got. However, it is even deepening the confusion. Because each sign has a certain influence on a certain position in the Tree of Life. Arguelles also changed the structure of the signs that come up in the four directions, to further the confusion. But, what is his claim about being such an authority on the Mayan Tzolkin? He claims himself to be the reincarnation of one of the Mayan Gods.
If you are interested to read and hear more about the Dreamspell, you may check http://dreamspell.blogspot.com
How will I understand if the website I checked is using the Dreamspell count?
If the sign name starts with a color, like Red, White, Yellow or Blue. Mayans never mention a color as a part of the Daysign’s name. Each sign has a color, which is correct. But this is already embedded in the culture and they do not over
emphasize the colors.
In the previous version of your website, there was a question regarding the position of the sun at the hour of birth. Why did you remove this question?
Well, first of all, I need to explain about the background of the situation a little bit. Due to different factors the Mayan culture has many discrepancies within itself and the Mayan calendars are not excluded. These factors are, geography, time or simply subjectivity. Many things are interpreted differently. For example, Yucatan culture and the Kiche culture, may have different names for the same signs. I.e. one of the names of the 8th sign is Seed in Yucatan. However in the Kiche way, that sign is called Net and Seed is the name of another one, the
8th, which is called Rabbit, in the Yucatan way.
This 4th and 8th in the order of signs are also relative. In Yucatan count, Alligator (Crocodile) is the first sign while in the Kiche Monkey is the first sign. In Yucatan way 1 Alligator is the beginning of the Tzolkin cycle but in Kiche, it is 8 Monkey, therefore they make celebrations on this day. This goes on about the directions of the signs, different ways of counting about the Year Bearers, and the shift point of one sign to the next is another. This may even vary according to one Daykeeper from another, and the modern experts on the subject are yet to find an agreement.
In the very beginning I was taking the midnight hour as the shift point, meaning the birthday of the person clearly shows the sign of the person. As I researched more, I see that position of the sun matters, and if the person is born between midnight and sunrise (actually if the sun is not there but first rays lighten up the sky, it would enough) he/she might still be influenced by the previous day’s energy.
Part of the problem is that many aspects of the Mayan culture is either lost or kept as a secret and not shared with foreigners. Nowadays more and more knowledge is being shared by the Mayan daykeepers. Therefore ideas have been changing since 2006 when I was doing my first readings and since 2011-2012 when I built my websites.
Recently two new ideas are getting into the public attention, while discussions about them are going on.
- About the sign of the person, the sunset matters, not the sunrise. Therefore, if the person is born after sunset, but before midnight, he/she is influenced by the following day’s energy.
- If the person is born from sunset to the sunrise, he/she is influenced by the both signs.
So, as you see, the topic is quite confusing and there are many opinions. Even among the Mayas themselves. In the end of the day, intuition, and especially intuition about one’s own self is the first and utmost important factor of decision. Therefore, I recommend reading both signs and try to see/feel which one, one resonates with you.
I would suggest checking the Mayan Sign, which is one day before you were born, only if you were born in clear darkness between midnight and the dawn, and ONLY if you do not feel a strong
resonance with the sign on your actual date of birth. Otherwise, do not confuse your mind about this. If you were born after midnight and before sunrise AND you are feeling you are more
resonating with the sign of the previous day, then go ahead and purchase your report according to this sign. If you already purchased your report and set your date of birth on it, please contact us at [email protected] and we will change it for you.
What if you feel resonating with both of these signs? Well than embrace them both and keep following their traces in you. You may purchase two of the reports and if over time you feel you are not resonating with one of them, we will refund you one of these reports.
Finally, I am sharing a long comment on this issue by Kenneth Johnson, who is my friend, my teacher and author of some of the most important books on the topic.
“Here is some writing I did on the topic. When does the Day Begin? Of all the questions I have received over the years, one of the most common is: What time does the Mayan day begin? This question is pertinent to all studies in Mayan astrology because it has a bearing on the most essential question of all: What is my day-sign? I have seen a great deal of speculation from Western “scientific” types who want to find an exact moment, down to the nano-second, when the day begins. They have developed all kinds of interesting theories! Unfortunately, none of it is even remotely Mayan conceptually. In order to understand the Mayan concept of the days, we need to understand a bit of the language as well. The word for “day” (k’in in Yucatec or q’ij in K’iche’) is exactly the same as the word for “sun.” If I am talking about “this day,” I use the word q’ij. If I want to remark that the sun is hot today and point at that orb in the sky, I also use the word q’ij. The words are the same because, in Mayan thinking, a day is defined as the course of the sun through the four stations of midnight, dawn, noon and sunset. Here again we see the essential Mayan world view of a fourfold universe coming into play. It should also be remembered that in Mayan thinking “north” is the same as “up,” and “south” is the same as “down.” Thus dawn = east, noon = north, sunset = west, and midnight = south. We live in a fourfold reality which is not merely static but forever in motion. This is how it works. I am writing these words on the day 11 Chicchan. When the sun goes down this evening, it will mark the moment at which the energy of the day 11 Chicchan crosses into the Underworld, the world of the ancestors and the spirits. The deeper it travels into the Underworld, the more its energy shall wane. As soon as the sun is down, the energy of the next day, 12 Cimi, will begin to make itself felt. The Daykeepers will light candles and burn incense in their shrine rooms to honor the advent of the day to come, 12 Cimi. There is no “exact” moment when this takes place. Don Miguel Vicente began his observances as soon as the sun dipped below the horizon. Don Rigoberto Itzep preferred to wait until it was fully dark. It’s a matter of personal preference. As the sun travels farther into the Underworld, the energy of 11 Chicchan becomes less and less powerful as its essence surrenders to the overwhelming forces of the darker half of the eternal polarity. Somewhere round about midnight, the growing energy of 12 Cimi will become stronger and more powerful than that of the waning 11 Chicchan. Scientific minds in search of an “exact moment” for the shifting of the days may perhaps be frustrated with such vagueness, but this is the real Mayan perception of the matter. It is a process rather than an event. Mayan Daykeepers always calculate horoscopes based on a midnight transition between the days, just as we do. Their reasoning and their world view may be somewhat different, but the result is the same. One should always use midnight as the astrological definition of a day, just as we do here in the west. Don Rigoberto once remarked that people born shortly before or after midnight often partakes of the qualities of both day-signs, much like those born upon a “cusp” in Western astrology. By the time the dawn arrives, 11 Chicchan will have disappeared completely. 12 Cimi will rule the day alone until sunset, when it too shall pass into the Underworld, and the energy of a new day will begin to make itself felt. What about Time Zones? Another frequently asked question is this: Should I define midnight in terms of my local time zone, or should I adjust it to the time zone for Central America (equivalent to the American CST)? This question has a bearing on an even more important philosophical issue: Is the Mayan Calendar indicative of a global energy, a planetary rhythm geared to the rising and setting of the sun wherever we may be in the world? Or is it a kind of time pulse which emanates specifically from the Mayan lands and has a distinct geographical locus? I wish I could answer this question clearly and unequivocally, but I cannot. I would be dishonest if I were to tell my readers that Mayan Calendar astrology is a cultural monolith, etched in stone with absolute agreement among all practitioners. This would be very far from the truth. There are just as many “topics of lively debate” in Mayan astrology as there are in Western astrology. This particular issue is one such topic. No consensus exists among Daykeepers. Don Rigoberto feels that the day-signs should be calculated according to your local time zone, wherever you may be in the world. Don Audelino Sac believes that one must use Central American time and adjust your calculations accordingly. I don’t remember that I ever asked Don Roberto Poz how he felt about it. I encourage students to experiment in this respect. If you come across a birth date which would change according to the time zone, try it both ways. Explore your feelings and your intuition about it. What do you think works best?”
I was born far from where the Mayas were actually living. Should I be using my local date and time of birth, or the Guatemalan ones?
You are suggested to use your local date and time of birth. Although the Tzolkin was revealed by the Mayas, its energies are global.